Stack Pass Counter Failure

[Jerry Hickel]

In the past couple of Royce seminars, Royce has been advocating a particular stack pass counter which I fail to find successful.

The setup:
With someone in my guard I'll attempt a triangle choke. They will defend by stacking me, turning their hips out and around to the free arm side, and grabbing my lapel with a cross collar grip. There are a number of counters to this position. The one taught by Royce is to isolate the wrist that has the cross collar position with the same arm (right arm grabs their right wrist) and then thread your opposite arm into a figure four grip. As this is established you let them pass, lock the figure foured arm's elbow to your chest, and turn into them. Ideally you end up in side control, holding the arm, and in position to attempt an armbar.

Failure:
Perhaps it is because I am fat and slow, but as I let them pass I have difficulty locking the elbow on my chest. My opponents can keep their elbow from getting locked down, although not off my chest, and move to mount. With both of my arms tied up and my feet based out to roll into them, it becomes an almost perfect setup for mount.

I understand the dynamics of the move but I fail to see the benefit of it compared to other stack pass counters (pushing the near side hip away, rolling into turtle, x-choke, etc.). Has anyone else attempted this counter and had success? Has anyone else had this counter tried on them and had it succeed?
_________________
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
-Thomas Jefferson

[Jeremy Lafreniere]

I use this one frequently, AND am incorporating the "Elbow Push" technique. Will you be in tonight? I can show you and then you can post the notes here.

[Jerry Hickel]

Sorry Jeremy, I didn't get this until today (Saturday). I was there on Thursday, but I'll be there next Wednesday (April 28th).
_________________
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
-Thomas Jefferson

[Jeremy Lafreniere]

We'll cover it then!

[Jerry Hickel]

For those who missed the class, Jeremy showed some great pointers to the arm lock stack pass counter. Here are some details:

The stack pass is initiated either from a double under position or to counter your attempt at a triangle. It doesn't matter which way we discuss it because the person initiating the pass must choose a side to pass to (assuming the double under position) or move to the free arm side from the failed triagle. For simplicity we will assume a double under pass with the stacking person moving to his right side. As the person moves to the right he will attempt a cross collar hold with his right hand to your right lapel. Before he is able to get a good grip pull his arm across your body with your right hand and then feed your left arm OVER and then UNDER to complete a figure four hold. Lock your elbows down tight to keep his elbow positioned on your chest. As he passes or you let him pass into side control, turn to your back and attempt the most critical move of this counter. Hook over his left leg with your left leg. This will prevent him from moving toward your head or mounting you. Continue to turn into him (turning to your left side) by posting with your feet and torquing his shoulder. As you rotate you have the opportunity to float over him and land in side control (the same side he was on you) or more times than not you will end up on the same side as the arm you are attacking.

As explained in class, this defense is also good for someone who has you in side control already and is attempting a cross side kimura/straight arm lock/americana. As they reach over your head with their right arm you complete the figure four hold and complete as above. Due to them being more perpendicular to you from the start, the float over is much easier (but the leg control is harder) and more times than not you land in side control to their left side with the americana already in place to cinch down.

One thing not covered in class is the arm bar finish. Assuming the counter works from the stack pass position you may end up on the same side as the trapped arm and in side control (this would be the opponent's right side from the scenario above). From here, maintain control of the arm and lean and sit out to the right so that your right foot lands under their side and you step over their head with the left. Because the arm is still bent the person may counter by grabbing their own hand. With the figure four hold you have, you can transition to a bicep crusher easily.

For those who were able to come to the class, I would classify this counter as advanced because you may end up in a worse position if you fail to complete the counter. You may end up mounted, or arm across chest in side mount for arm triangle finish, or as you try to reach for their leg they step over and end up in triple attack position.
_________________
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
-Thomas Jefferson